Gatekeepers, Having A Big Family and Figurative Sculpture with Nicola Godden

Lucy: Today I’m talking to Nicola Godden, who’s a figurative sculptor. And although the majority of her work is for private owners, she’s created some very well known and loved monuments, including Icarus for London 2012 Olympic Village, Sir Peter Scott sculpture for the London Wildfowl and Wetlands Center in Barnes, and the Hammersmith Man for the Hammersmith Flyover, among others. I began our conversation today by asking, “how did sculpture first come into your life?”

Nicola: Well, I was quite young, I think, as I always – from a very, very young age – drew all the time. I think when I was little, I used to come up to my mother with drawings, and she said, “well, who did this?” and I’d say, “well, I did it!” and she’d say, “no, don’t be so ridiculous,” you know? And I used to just do drawing after drawing, I’d spend hours and hours drawing. And then apparently, one day I went up to her and sort of made some movements of my hand, and I said, “I just want to do this,” and I was…you know, as if I wanted to build something. I had this sort of fantasy about creating little people. And she went, “ah!” and she went and got me some clay.

Lucy: Ah, so she recognised it?

Nicola: She did. She did. So, I was obviously fooling about with it quite young. Yes, so I have to thank my mother for that.

Lucy: Ah. So, was that something, do you think, that she recognised from someone else in the family, or is that something she was looking out for particularly?

Nicola: Not really. My father was very able, he could sort of pretty much do anything: he could draw, he could make anything, you know, he could sing, he did all these things. But it was just…it just happened. I didn’t actually know where it came from at all, because it’s strange, because my own daughter is like me, and could draw from when she was tiny, but we don’t know where it came from. So, it’s just one of those things.

Lucy: Just there.

Nicola: Yes. I think…well, anyhow, I spent, I only…I remember my childhood was just drawing. I don’t know remember much more, but I just drew the whole time.

Lucy: I was always hoping that one of my kids would be like that, that they would just draw and entertain themselves for hours, but unfortunately, I got the other variety, who just want to be entertained all the time instead.

Nicola: Oh, dear. Maybe it’ll come through in your grandchildren.

Lucy: Oh, I’m really hoping for a nice, quiet one, that just, you know, gets on with it themselves. And was there someone in school that took you a little bit further along the line, or was it more at university?

Nicola: Unfortunately, nobody at school. Honestly, throughout my whole school life, I don’t think I was taught anything artistically. Even…I was just saying, you know, when I was at…I went to boarding school in Somerset, and I was the only person who touched clay, or did anything, really. And they honestly didn’t know what to do with me, so they just left me to it. I had no tuition at all, and you know, even in my sixth form, really nothing. I mean, it’s nothing like nowadays, where the children…you know, the art departments in some schools are fantastic.

Lucy: Yeah.

Nicola: And I thought, “oh, you lucky, lucky children!” You know, my children, I think, you know, “gosh, you’ve had every opportunity to explore everything, and all these really enthusiastic teachers,” and honestly, nothing when I was growing up, at all.

Lucy: Yeah. But I wonder, it’s almost like they’ve gone to university before they’ve gone to university, kids. Because I keep saying you’re going to be really disappointed because, you know, there was something to sort of look forward to by moving on to higher education in our day, but there isn’t really now. Some of the schools are so set up, it’s probably as good as a university department used to be.

Nicola: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, no, that’s what I thought, too. You know, years ago, I thought, oh, what’s going to happen when you go to art college? I mean, you’ve done it all…

Lucy: Yeah, there’s nowhere else to go.

Nicola: No, no. I do remember when I was a child, my mother, when I was little said, “when you’re older, you’re going to go to art college,” and I was thinking, “oh, how exciting, oh, I can’t wait,” you know? And then when I got to art college, it was one of the most miserable times in my life. I hated it.

Lucy: Oh, no. Where was it?

Nicola: Well, it was local. It was Farnham. The first day, I went to a foundation year, which was a complete waste of time for me because I knew exactly what I wanted to do. I wanted to do sculpture, I wasn’t interested in experimenting, you know, with any of these other sort of…well, whatever they did, really.

Lucy: Mediums, yeah.

Nicola: I mean, I just saw it as a complete waste of time. And I went into a degree course, and I was thoroughly miserable there, too.

Lucy: Ah, that’s terrible.

Nicola: It was awful. But it did…I was very, very figurative, as in realistic figurative sculpture. I did that sort of work beforehand. And because I was so miserable at art college, it did change things. So actually, you know, looking back on it, it probably did me a lot of good because I started doing much more abstract work, and my unhappiness showed in my work, and it became sort of raw and very simplified and more abstracted, and actually was some of the best work I’ve ever done, I think, because I was so miserable.

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Nicola Godden with Icarus Fell (Amid Feathers) ©

Lucy: Gosh. But I mean, it’s incredible, because that could have put you off. I mean, you know, there’s sort of two ways to go with misery, isn’t there? Sometimes it produces great work, you hear songs, obviously a lot about love, people’s hearts being broken. And some of the lyrics are really spectacular, and you think they’d have never got there without experiencing that heartbreak. But then there’s also the part that just shuts the creativity down, it literally puts a lid on it because you’re just in such pain.

Nicola: You do wonder. I mean, see, you just made me think of Sibelius, you know, I think he wrote some of his best music because he was so upset.

Lucy: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicola: And other people do. And I think that happened later on in my life, when I was very unhappily married, and suddenly, all this stuff started coming out, and I thought, “oh, this is exciting. There’s an upside to this.”

Lucy: Yeah.

Nicola: You know, it produced…you know, it was a big change of style and work. So yeah, perhaps angst is good for artists, I think.

Lucy: Yeah, just thinking about, like, all the war poetry, and all the fantastic art that has come out of war. But you know, it feels wrong somehow that something like that comes out of something so terrible, but…I don’t know how the psyche works, really.

Nicola: Well, talking about poetry, too, I think when I was at, you know, at art college, we had to do…we’d have to write something, and anyhow, I started writing poetry because I was so miserable. And I wrote…I’ve never written poetry before, and I’ve never written it since, really, and I just wrote this huge amount of poetry because I was just…it was all sort of the, you know, the essence of what I felt. I was just trying to put it on paper.

Lucy: And do you think that was…was that loneliness, or was it just not really getting what you were desperate for in the learning?

Nicola: Sort of a bit of both, because I only, I think, really clicked with one person while I was at art college, and the chap who ran the department really shouldn’t have been in charge of anything. He…I don’t know, he caused a lot of trouble for me.

Lucy: Oh, no. Sort of, what, tried to snuff it out of you, rather than encourage it?

Nicola: Well, yeah, and he was very unpleasant to me, so yeah, I just tried to avoid him because…I was a bit too sensitive. I didn’t fight back, you know? I was much more likely to sort of go off and cry in a corner. Very annoying, actually.

Lucy: Yeah.

Nicola: I’d like to…I think I wrote him a poem, in some of the poetry I was writing, and I did write about him once. And when he read it, he didn’t recognise it was him until another member of staff told him.

Lucy: Clearly not the most intuitive character then.

Nicola: Oh, no. But anyhow, moving on…

Lucy: Yes. I mean, when did it start to become a profession?

Nicola: That was interesting, because it wasn’t until my degree show, when some people were coming around. You know, members of public came round and saw the work, and people started asking if they could buy the odd drawing, and I thought,
what, “buy something I’ve done?” And then I’ll never forget, a woman came round with her twin boys who were probably seven or eight at the time, and she looked at one of these bronzes I’d cast. It was this very, very abstract figure, and she just stood there and she said, “oh, my God, I love it.” And her boys said, “oh, mummy, why don’t you buy it?” and then she, you know, turned to me and said, “can I buy this?” And I thought, “oh, my goodness…” I had no idea that art could have that effect on people, you know, that something I could produce would give somebody else, you know, something special, whatever it was could make someone…

Lucy: Such pleasure, yeah.

Nicola: Yes. And suddenly I thought, “oh, my goodness, maybe…maybe I can do this.” Maybe I could, you know, continue. And it was the most wonderful, wonderful thing. That’s why I’ve never forgotten it, because… I’d love to meet the woman again. But you know, it was a real turning point for me, and very, very exciting.

Lucy: Yeah. And how funny, as well, that it was external. It wasn’t, sort of, occurring to you beforehand…

Nicola: No. No.

Lucy: It was almost a surprise. I love that.

Nicola: Yes. And I suppose before I thought, “oh, why didn’t I go into the sciences?”. Why wasn’t I interested in something useful to society, you know? Oh, you know, “art, where am I going to go with that?” And then this… I turned around and thought, “oh, my goodness,” you know? And then my attitude changed. I thought, “gosh, if I can create something either somebody thinks is beautiful or hot, or you know, that somehow they respond to it, I mean, that’s really something special.” So, it was a real eye opener for me.

Lucy: And so, did it begin right away after that, then? Did you begin to get traction straightaway, and throw your energy behind it, or were there a few curves first?

Nicola: Well, I think the first thing I did, I was lucky enough to…I got a job at Madame Tussauds, doing a figure there, and that in turn paid me enough to go and get somewhere to live in London, and then I was able to pay for a studio for I think three months. And in that studio, I was in Chiswick, Barley Mow workspace, and it just so happened that Roddy Llewellyn was working there, setting up his garden design business. So, I met him, I don’t know if that means…you know, because you’re so young…

Lucy: Hardly!

Nicola: But there he was, and he gave me my first commission, because he was doing gardens and he said, “well, would you like to do a bronze for this garden?” I thought, “well, yes, of course I would.” And of course, that then paid for my next three to six months, or whatever it was, and the person whose garden it was, he had a business and said, “oh, would you like to do something for my company?” and then things started happening. It was just completely by luck, really, which was…you know, that’s how these things happen. But terribly exciting.

Lucy: Yeah. And also, the fact is that each one of those, I mean, must give you confidence because it validates the work, doesn’t it, that someone else sees something else in it, and it leads to that next thing.

Icarus Fell Amid Feathers Large Bronze Sculpture

Icarus Fell (Amid Feathers) by Nicola Godden ©

Nicola: I think I’m in with that, really. I’d much rather do something I wanted to do and sell it, or somebody says, “oh, would you do that, or a bigger version or whatever for me?” It is difficult doing a commission where somebody tells you what they want, or what they want you to do, because then you’re not working from yourself, are you?

Lucy: Yeah. Well, I think, I don’t…some people really love the restrictions of those commissions. Like, it’s almost like their creativity, you know, goes up if they’ve got quite a narrow remit. And then there’s other people who seem to just, you know, hate any restrictions whatsoever. I’m not great with, I would say, rules generally. I don’t think I could ever work for anyone else. I’m probably unemployable because of the fact that I just can’t work around other people’s ways of doing things. But you know, I’m always amazed at how brilliant some people are at that.

Nicola: Mmm. I think I’m probably more like you, actually!

Lucy: A sort of rebel streak. I really love your Icarus series of statues. I think, you know, in my sculpture park of my dreams, I would have to have one of those. Tell me where that came from.

Nicola: Going back to my childhood, because I lived in countries like Kenya and Cyprus and Singapore, they were just amazing places, and there was always lots of sunlight and lots of sky, lots of space. And I, for some reason, had always wanted to fly. I didn’t really realise that, but there was that feeling of…yeah, I just wanted to learn how to fly. And it wasn’t until my 50th birthday that my husband gave me some flying lessons, and that just completely turned my head. And it was that, that…that’s when I started doing Icarus pieces, because I wanted to create that feeling of flying. And I think we were on holiday in Greece, and I said, “how do I make this work?” And then, of course, we talked about Greek mythology, and I thought, “oh, my God, I have him! I have him, you know, it’s Icarus!” And yeah, I just started working on my little Icarus figures, which then of course led to the one for the Olympics, which was extraordinary.

Lucy: Yes, it was magnificent. Yeah, I mean, that must have been great to see that go in place.

Nicola: Oh, I loved…yeah, I mean, that was quite extraordinary. Because I hadn’t been doing the Icarus pieces for very long when the owner of The Sculpture Park, Eddie Powell, came to my studio, because I’d been working with him for a while, and I said, “oh, I’m so excited, look what I’m doing, look what I’m doing,” and he sort of went away, he said nothing. And then a week later, he said, “you know the Icarus that you’re doing,” he said, “how would you like to make a big one?” I said, “oh, well, I’d love to do a big one!” And he said, “and how would you like it if it went into the Olympic Village for the Olympics?” And this was only…I think this was the autumn before the Olympics, and of course, you imagine that all that stuff has been done years before. And I said, “you mean there’s a chance to put something in?” and he said, “yeah.” And so, that’s what I did, and it was so exciting.

Lucy: But gosh, that space, it really needed it, too. I mean, I think it just, it gives a dimension that…it needed sculpture there for sure.

Nicola: Yes. And what was wonderful during the Olympics, during the Paralympics, I was contacted by a young man, a South African who…I mean, poor chap, he didn’t have arms or legs, but he was competing. And he said at the opening, he went up to the statue, sat in front of it, and it gave him courage to do his sport. And it was so touching, and I thought, “oh, yes, that’s…you know, that’s the reason you do something, isn’t it?” It was amazing. So, that was a really…

Lucy: And I’m sure that there’s…I’m sure that although you haven’t heard them, there must be multiple stories like that from the athletes that were there, absolutely. Because it is…yeah, it’s an incredibly striking sculpture.

Nicola: Oh, thank you. Thank you.

Lucy: You were talking a bit about how the flying lessons kind of inspired that theme. Do you use inspiration generally that way? Is it some experience that sort of shoots you forward with your work, or would you say it’s more internal?

Nicola: I think there have been lots and lots of things, and it’s either something that’s going on inside, which you know, in some cases is how you feel emotionally, like to say your relationships. But also, you know, things like bits…you know, I started working from bits of bone or stone that suggested figures, and that’s so exciting, you know? That’s the other side, you know, this rather…the more abstracted side. And you see these figures in this stone, then you sort of bring them out by producing the piece. And so, it can be something like that. Occasionally, it’s been a dream I’ve had, or a photograph or a tiny glimpse of something, you know? It can be almost anything. But that’s what I find exciting, I love changing, you know, my work. I don’t think you can necessarily tell that my work’s my work. I don’t know how other people feel, but…you know, I’ve changed so much over the years. And I find that exciting, just trying out different things all the time.

Lucy: A kind of discovery journey. It’s creative discovery.

Nicola: Yeah.

Lucy: But I mean, does that feed into the way that you work most days? Have you got a routine for the studio, or is it more when inspiration strikes you?

Nicola: I tend to work in sort of manic bursts of work, and I will, I’ll go in… You know, when I was doing the Icarus, I was in at sort of 7:00 in the morning to 7:00 at night, and not wanting to leave the studio, you know?

Lucy: Being dragged out.

Nicola: Yes, loving it! Unfortunately, I have a family, though.

Lucy: Ah, yes, there’s nothing like people snapping at your heels to make you get on with other things.

Nicola: Absolutely. It’s a bit like when I did the Peter Scott piece. When it was unveiled, two weeks later I had my fourth child, and I thought, “right, I think I’m going to have a little break” because I was absolutely exhausted.

Lucy: Oh, dear.

Nicola: “I need a little bit of time with the children.”

Lucy: Yeah. The only thing is I’m not sure what is more exhausting. Half the time I go away to work so that I get a rest.

Nicola: Oh, yes. Absolutely, I agree. And I love it when I’m completely immersed in some work, particularly a big piece. Like, this time last year I was doing a really big piece for Sculpture by the Lakes, you know, Simon Gudgeon‘s space, and I just, I loved working. I was actually working at the foundry because the piece was much too big for my studio. My studio’s very small. And yeah, so I’d go there every day, I’m whacking on great big pieces of slabs of clay, it’s just the most brilliant feeling. I absolutely adore working like that, you know, and just all day long, and there’s no end to it, and I never get tired or bored or anything, you know? I love working on big pieces.

Icarus Bronze Sculpture in Garden

Icarus I by Nicola Godden ©

Lucy: Something like that, you’re having to go out every day, I suppose, obviously to the foundry, but do you have normally a routine to get you in the mode of working? Or do you not need a routine, you can just slip straight in?

Nicola: Well, I do sort of. If I’ve had a bit of a gap, a break, I do go in and I tidy up my studio. And listening to a previous interview, I think…I’ve heard someone else say the same thing. But I go in there, and if I’m in the studio, clearing it up and moving things around, or just, you know, getting rid of all the dust and clay and everything, just being in there is almost enough to…

Lucy: Yeah, I think it was Louisa Forbes, wasn’t it, and she was saying, “I feel so girly, sweeping up.”

Nicola: I know! I thought, “that’s not girly, is it? Oh!”

Lucy: I know. Well, I think that’s sort of how she kind of referred to it, like as if, you know…like the 1950s or something, all we did was sweep.

Nicola: Well, you can see why there weren’t many famous female artists, can’t you know? I mean, honestly, well, you’re trying to…you’re bringing up children, you’re trying to keep everything running in the house. And it still goes on, and all my children are adult, and I still get torn away by them all the time, you know?

Lucy: Absolutely. And I find that the older that they get…In my head, I thought it would all get easier. But at least when they were little, I used to be able to put them down to sleep at a certain time, and I knew I had a few hours. Now it just goes on endlessly, because they can…they’re awake later than I am, so they want me all the time.

Nicola: Yeah. But you know, you come out the other end.

Lucy: Yeah.

Nicola: And actually, I remember some years ago, another sculptor whose work I admire, Caroline Stacey, and she had six of her own children. In fact, I ended up with two stepsons as well, so I had six to bring up. And she said, “now they’re all adult, they can…you know, I’m not doing anything at all.” And she said, “I’m not getting involved with my grandchildren or anything like that,” and she said, “the good thing is you can just keep going.” And I thought, “oh, that’s nice,” and so I sort of thought, “yes, I don’t actually have to stop this ever.”

Lucy: Yeah.

Nicola: So, that’s sort of how I feel now, which is great. I think, “oh, well, I’ve got years ahead. This is brilliant.”

Lucy: Yeah. And that’s the great thing about creative industry as well, I think, is you don’t think about that retirement age that other people do, you just…you know, it’s not there.

Nicola: Yeah. Well, I’ve been teaching my husband how to cook, too. It’s brilliant.

Lucy: Oh, gosh, I need to do that.

Nicola: Well, I’m working now, you see, he’s retired, and I’m going, “well, okay, you can do something now.”

Lucy: And has it been a good career to you?

Nicola: Well, I think I’ve had some wonderful times. Yes, I think if I’d been a man, it would be very different, but I wouldn’t, you know, not have my children for anything.

Lucy: No.

Nicola: But I’ve met all sorts of amazing people, and you know, done some wonderful things. Yeah, I think it’s been fantastic.

Lucy: And have there been hard times, though? Have been periods where you’ve thought, “oh, I’m just not getting where I want to be?”

Nicola: Well, I don’t know that I’ve ever got where I want to be.

Lucy: Actually, that’s a really daft question!

Nicola: You know, you just sort of…yeah, I think if I’d been able to be single-minded, it would have been very different. And I do envy lots of my male contemporaries because they have been able to be single-minded in a way that because I’m a woman, I haven’t been able to. Or you know, not wanted to because I, you know, I valued the time with the children.

Lucy: Yeah. And also, for me, I feel a lot that I’ve only got so much energy, whether that’s directed into creative pursuits or not. So even if I’ve got the time, I just have to have the energy left, and if I’ve given it out, which you do very often with children and commitments like that, you know, you’re just…you’re spent. So actually, even sometimes if I’ve got a couple of hours, I’m like, “I just have nothing to give, so…” But, I mean…

Nicola: You can’t be brilliant at everything, can you?

Lucy: No.

Nicola: So, you either have to be completely single-minded, you know, like Henry Moore was. Wasn’t he lucky, you know, when he’d just go in his studio every single day, and think of nothing else. And I think a lot of men do that. But I couldn’t do that, you know? But, so…oh, well.

Lucy: Yeah. I know, I’d probably find that actually, there wasn’t that much to me anyway. So, that’s the other worrying part. If you did have all that time, I’m not sure I’d come up with the goods! Have you had one or two days where you’ve thought, “do you know what, I should just do something else”?

Nicola: What, as a career?

Lucy: Yeah.

Nicola: Oh, no, I don’t think so. No, I only thought that when I was much younger. But no, once I started working, I’ve loved, you know, creating things so much. Yeah, there’s nothing quite like it. When I’m on a roll, I absolutely adore it. Doesn’t mean I produce anything worth seeing, but I just feel…I just love it myself, you know? And once you’ve finished something, you get on to the next thing.

Peter Scott

Sir Peter Scott by Nicola Godden ©

Lucy: And has there been a particular statue where you’ve thought, “yeah, you know, if I never make anything else, I’ve done it”?

Nicola: I’ve never felt that. I do sometimes…there are a few pieces I think, “yeah, I probably couldn’t have done that better. I’m pleased with that.” But they tend to be the more abstract pieces. I think with figurative sculpture, you always feel that you could have done better, so… And as part of the bronze casting process, you know, I was in the foundry most of this last week, and I spent hours and hours and hours working on the waxes. And they say, “when are you going to leave, Nicola? Come on,” you know? I say, “oh, I won’t be here long,” and they say, “yes, you will, you’ll be here days.” And I’m trying to, you know, perfect the work I’ve already finished, so I work for, you know, days on waxes. And then when it comes through to the bronzing, you know, I look at them, and I think “that’s not what it was like,” and we start almost rebuilding in bronze. And I think, “oh, no!” and “ugh, it just…” So yeah, I’m never really happy with anything.

Lucy: Satisfied.

Nicola: Not ’til right…well, yeah.

Lucy: Well, I suppose there is that element that it’s just incredibly hard to say, “right, full stop, done, end of…”, you know, that…?

Nicola: It is. It is. No, I usually get thrown out, really.

Lucy: So, they send the muscle men in to clear the studio.

Nicola: Well, I remember with the…I think it was the Peter Scott…or no, it was the Icarus, but you know, big pieces, when I thought how long it had taken me to produce the Icarus and the wings, you know, they took me weeks and weeks just doing the feathers and the wings. And then it goes to foundry, and they chop it up into thirty-seven pieces, and I nearly cried.

Lucy: Oh, my goodness.

Nicola: I thought, “I can’t believe it… So, they’re going to build all those little bits back together again?” Of course, it’s never the same.

Lucy: No.

Nicola: And it can be really distressing.

Lucy: I can imagine. I can’t…thirty-seven, I’d never realized it was quite as many pieces as that.

Nicola: It was…I did count the pieces. I was absolutely horrified. Yeah, I had to step away, and yeah, go outside and…

Lucy: Cry quietly.

Nicola: Yeah, I know, it was really, really upsetting.

Lucy: Yeah. I know, there needs to be some magical formula. The amount of problems with sculpture that I work on, where it’s the joins that cause the issues, especially over time, because they tend not to age quite at the same rate. Because the metallurgy is slightly different in those zones, they age at a different rate to the other parts, and so I have to do a lot of work trying to harmonise that. And you know, it’s complex. Often, with more traditional patinas, they do age better in some cases.

Nicola: Yes.

Lucy: It tends to be the problems arise with, particularly with lighter shades, and with kind of more avant-garde patinas, ones that are, you know, less classical, that you tend to get more problems with them. But the thing is that you’re not the only one that wants to weep when there’s joins.

Nicola: Sure. Oh, yeah.

Lucy: I’ve seen grown men weep, too.

Nicola: Out of frustration. Yes, yes.

Peter Scott

Sir Peter Scott by Nicola Godden ©

Lucy: Well, Nicola, thank you so much for today, and chatting to us, taking the time. And I was hoping you might tell everyone where they might be able to find a little bit more about you and your figurative sculpture, if they’d like to.

Nicola: Well, I have my website, and that’s easy, that’s Nicolagodden.com. And I’m on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn…possibly Pinterest as well. I’m not very good at doing all of these little social media things, so I get other people to help me. I’m hopeless. I really enjoyed, actually, listening to your other interviews. I’ve been listening to them.

Lucy: Oh, that’s good.

Nicola: And some of the sculptors I didn’t know about, and I’ve loved seeing their work. And it’s really exciting to listen to other people, and I always get such a buzz from seeing other people’s work, you know, at like, the foundries, and… Anyway, some of them, you know, the people that you’ve been interviewing, I’m thinking, how did I not know about this person, you know?

Lucy: Well, the thing is that sculpture inspires, right? It’s not that you’re copying other people, but it fires you up.

Nicola: It does, yes.

Lucy: And so, it’s not a competitive thing, like, “oh, my work’s better than their work” or whatever, it’s actually that you admire other people for their skills.

Nicola: Yes. Yes. And something that somebody else could have done, you know, like…I don’t know if you know the sculptor Michael Ayrton, obviously he’s not alive now, but he’s been quite an influence, his work. And you can…even if you get an idea from something else, you start doing your piece, and it turns into something completely different because you’re in there, you know?

Lucy: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicola: And that’s really interesting. And even if you tried to copy something, you’d never be able to copy it. But you know, whatever you have to give goes into that work.

Lucy: Yeah, it’s like your filter it’s come through, and something new is produced, which is, I mean, you know, it’s evolutionary, isn’t it?

Nicola: It is. It is. And thank you very much, I’ve really enjoyed this.

Lucy: Good!